www.gd-uk.org

Hi all

Take a look at this link from Michael Dorosh's GD research website on the order of battle for 3Kp, 1 Btln, PFRGD on the eve of Kursk. You will need to go to the GD info section on the left, and then scroll down to the OOB sub-units.

http://members.shaw.ca/grossdeutschland/

Two things are of interest here to me. Firstly, it provides such detail as the actual ranks, rather than the theoretical rank structure. Secondly, note the high percentage of junior ranks between füsilier and unteroffizier.

If we focus on the three zug which would be most relevant to us, of the 100 man strength, 54% are gefreiters, with the füsilieren comprising a suprisingly low 19%.

Here is the actual breakdown of the ranks by number of the Kompanie excluding the combat train.

Oberleutnant x1
Leutnant x1
Feldwebel x4
Unteroffizier x8
Obergefreiter x9
Gefreiter x54
Oberfusilier x4
Fusilier x19
Total 100 men

It would be interesting whether anyone can provide similar detailed OOB's of kompanie or zug strength that give the actual, not theoretical ranks held. I would think this will be difficult to find, especially finding info with a comparable timeframe of say 1943-1945.

Get digging chaps, I have my feelers out there but I have an inkling I will need your input here.

Feel free to comment on this apparent rank structure, and the disparity in numbers on what we would perceive to be "correct".

Thanks

Very interesting. I think it may have something to do, as we discussed in Germany, that many of the 'ranks' are in fact positions, or indications of service length. Perhaps it's an indication that the units were largely composed of veterans with the Fuesilieren being the replacements, or that the unit has yet to receive any replacements even. Very interesting to note, in my opinion is that both of the weapons squads have two Unteroffiziere in them - presumably as Gruppen- and Truppfuehrer. My two Pfennigs worth anyway.

Amazes me how much information they have, i.e. names and so on.

Hi Harry

With regards your posing the question that they may not have received any replacements, I don't think this could be a reason in this instance. As mentioned, this is the OOB just prior to the Kursk offensive. I may be wrong, but I would imagine that they would have had as full a complement of men as possible.

That said, what was a kompanie strength at this time? 100-120 I believe? If so, this kompanie was at full strength.

The logical thought process for me is as you say in reference to our discussion in Germany, that yes, it is more to do with length of service and/or experience (as you say, "veterans"), than holding a "real" position of responsibility.

The sheer number of gefreiters within this unit would to me realistically mean that they had no one to order about, with (obviously) the unteroffizieren and obergefreiters giving the orders.

More thoughts please gentlemen.

From what I could find, the full strength for a company should be between 100-200 men. (The 916 website gives it as 142 for a 1944 company). I take what Nick says - I was merely throwing ideas around - and am inclined to agree. I would also be interested to know how many of the personnel are returned or 'volunteered' from either rear echelon or training units, but I doubt this would be possible to find out. Also, it would be interesting to know where the non-replacement elements of the company came from, i.e. was another unit dissolved in order to make up a whole company, or were they always in that company? Again, something that would be very difficult to discover.

Overall, I think that this aptly demonstrates what Nick raised in Germany about how many Gefreiters and so on one sees in photos and the like when compared to the numbers of ordinary Schuetzen/Grenadiere/Fuesilieren.

Anyway, I must be off - have to move house!

All the best,

Harry

Hi Harry - hope I didn't come across as dismissive, I took it that you were being hypothetical.

I may or may not have some interesting info re this subject. Am chatting to a bloke who believes he has actual Btln/Kp ranks for Fj, Pnr and Inf. He will not be able get this info to me before next Thu. We shall wait and see.

Meanwhile, express your thoughts gentlemen. Permission to speak freely.

Hallo,
The ‘U.S. war Dept handbook on German military forces (TM-E 30-451)’ states the following:

“PRIVATES. There are three grades in the group which correspond with U.S. privates first class, and a soldier may be promoted from any of them to become a corporal. They may be described as chief private first class in administrative position (Stabsgefreiter), senior private first class who functions as acting corporal (Obergefreiter), and ordinary private first class (Gefreiter). A soldier cannot become chief private first class without having been a senior private first class.”

The book supplies the ranks relevant to our enquiry:

“Ordinary Private = Grenadier/Fuesilier/Kanonier etc
Senior Private = Obergrenadier/Oberfuesilier etc
Private first class (ordinary) = Gefreiter
Private first class (acting corporal) = Obergefreiter
Private first class (administrative) = Stabsgefreiter
Corporal = Unteroffizier”

It also states:

“PROMOTION OF ENLISTED MEN. In most branches, a soldier cannot become a private first class without having been a senior private and he cannot become a corporal without having been at least an ordinary private first class (Gefreiter). ..the designation as senior private, which does not involve an increase in pay, is now automatic in principle upon completion of the basic training period. Promotions to any grade of private first class are dependent on time limits and merit, but not on tables of organisation.”

And finally:

“After 4 months of service in a combat unit, privates of any rank who are squad leaders may be promoted to corporals and corporals who are platoon leaders may be promoted to staff sergeants (Feldwebel), regardless of length of total service or service in grade.”

Hope this adds to the confusion!

DDD!

I think realistically that ranks between Soldat (equivalent to a private in the British army) to Oberstabsgefreiter held a lot less responsibility than say an Obergefreiter upwards.

It seems that the various Gefreiter ranks were almost a token gesture of "thanks" and an indication of experience for new recruits to look up to for advice whilst in the field.

Interestingly there is no equivalent in the British Army for the Gefreiter rank and is in the same category as a "private". There is also no direct equivalent for an Obergefreiter (that I am aware of - correct me if I am wrong) other than possibly a Lance Corporal/Bombadier.

An Unteroffizier is regarded as an 'Other Ranks 4' (OR-4) which is the equivalent to a Corporal in the British Army.

Interestingly there is no equivalent in the British Army for a Stabsunteroffizier (OR-5) in the British Army.

The next rank is a OR-6 - Feldwebel or Sergeant.

A Stabsfeldwebel OR-8 is the equivalent to either a Warrant Officer Class Two (Quartermaster Sergeant) or a Warrant Officer Class Two (Sergeant Major).

Hope this is of use!

Wolfie

Hallo,

I guess that there is more of a comparison between the U.S. and German than the German and Brit ranks, hence why I chose the U.S. manual material.

Not sure why this similarity occurs - perhaps the U.S. Army copied the German rank structure? Would make sense to emulate what appears to be a succesful system? Another question to solve!?

Agreed that the Gefreiter stripe appears to be literally 'earning your stripe'. Most, if not all of the Gefreiters appearing in the 3K list would have been at the retaking of Kharkov in the spring of 1943, probably as Fuesiliers? The division was beefed up just before the counter-attack according to Spaeter.

Based on that, it can be seen that 3K PFRGD was a combat experienced unit with few new men on the books. What the 3K returns list looked like immediately after Kursk can only be imagined....

Hi chaps

Right, my Dutch friend has come back with some actual OOB's which I list as he has written them below. I will try and ascertain his source as although these are Fallschirmjager (and thus perhaps one could surmise they may have a higher percentage of ranks above jager) they are nonetheless interesting.

Here they are:

11./Fsch.Sturm Regiment (Crete '41):
1 x Oberleutnant (Kp.-chef)
1 x Oberarzt
2 x Leutnant (Zugführer)
4 x Oberfeldwebel (2 Zugführer)
1 x Hauptfeldwebel (Kp.-Hauptfeldwebel)
1 x Stabsfeldwebel
11 x Feldwebel
48 x Oberjäger/Jäger
93 x Obergefreiter/Gefreiter
Total 162 men


Stabskompanie III./Fsch. Sturm.Regiment Crete 20.05.41 as it went into action:
1 x Major
1 x Stabsarzt
2 x Rgt.Inspkt.
3 x Oberleutnant
3 x Oberfeldwebel
1 x Hauptfeldwebel
1 x Stabsfeldwebel
4 x Feldwebel
13 x Oberjäger
27 x Obergefreiter/Gefreiter
19 x Jäger
Total - 75 men

Send to Rgt. stab: 1 x Feldwebel, 2 x Jäger
Send to 9Kp. - 12Kp.'s: 4 x Oberjäger, 8 x Gefreiter. (Each Kp. 1 Funktrupp: 1 x Obj. + 2 x Gefr.)
Send to le. Seestaffel: 1 x Inspekt.
Send to other Kp.: 3 x Oberarzt.


5./Fsch.Jgr.Rgt. 1 june 1940
2 x Oberleutnant
2 x Leutnant
1 x Oberarzt
1 x Hauptfeldwebel
1 x Oberfeldwebel
8 x Feldwebel
30 x Oberjäger
149 x Obergefreiter/Gefreiter/Jäger*
Total - 194 men

*I have requested a breakdown of this (at least the number of Jäger) to determine a percentage of the lowest rank.

Looking at it loosely (and given I am even less knowledgable on fallschirmjager), it would appear that the lowest rank (ie. soldat) is again a far lower percentage than I had previously thought.

I am not aware of the full compliment of a fallschirmjager kompanie, but given the numbers of the first and third OOB (162 & 194 men respectively), one can assume that they are at full strength or not far off it.

Given the 11 kompanie appears to be just prior to Kreta, we could surmise that they are made up of a large number of seasoned men who saw action in the low countries etc, thus the 2 to 1 difference in Ogef/Gef to Ojgr/Jgr.

In addition, it appears to be designated an assault unit (as they are Fallschirmjager, I am not too sure what this difference may be, given they are regarded as assault troops generally). This designation, if taken literally, could support the notion of "assault" units containing a higher percentage of Gefs/Ogefs etc, reflecting their "veteran" status, thus enabling the unit to fulfill their role in leading an offensive through their previous hard earned endeavours.

This would appear as the Leutnant said, to be the role of 3rd Kp PFRGD prior to Kursk.

The 5th Kp of Fj Regt.1 OOB may though contradict the idea that it was only "veteran" units that contained a low percentage of the soldat rank. Theirs appears to be taken in the early stages of the invasion of France, and so may not have seen much action. A breakdown of the actual Jäger figure is needed and a bit of research into the units combat history.

I have asked my source for any info on infanterie/panzergrenadieren, which he has said he has.

Very good thread this chaps, enjoying it!

Here is the breakdown of 5./Fsch.Jgr.Rgt. 1 june 1940 as listed above.

Kompanie-Chef: 1 x Oblt
Hauptfeldwebel: 1 x Hfw
Schreibstube: 1 x Obj, 1 x Ogfr, 2 x Gfr,
Rechnungsführer 1 x Fw, 1 x Gfr
Bekleidung: 1 x Obj, 1 x Gfr.
Fourier: 1 x Ogfr.
Koch: 1 x Obj
Waffen u. Geräte: 1 x Fw, 1 x Gfr.
Schirrmeister: 1 x Obj , 1 x Obj
Kraftfahrer: 6x Gfr.
Fallschirmwart: 1 x Obj
Schiess Uffz: 1 x Obj
Arzt (Eins. Kreta): 1 x Oberarzt Sanitäter: 1 x Obj, 1 x Gfr.
Kompanie-Trupp: 1 x Ofw, 2 x Fw, 1 x Obj, 3 x Gfr

I. Zug 1 x Leutnant; 1 x Fw
Zugtrupp 3 x Gfr.
1. Gruppe 1 x Fw, 1 x Obj, 12 x Gfr.
2. Gruppe 2 x Obj, 17 x Gfr.
3. Gruppe 4 x Obj, 10 x Gfr.

II. Zug 1 x Leutn, 1 x Fw
Zugtrupp 2 x Obj, 4 x Gfr
4. Gruppe 2 x Obj, 1 x Ogfr, 11 x Gfr
5. Gruppe 2 x Obj, 15 x Gfr
6. Gruppe 2 x Obj, 1 x Ogfr, 14 x Gfr

III. Zug 1 x Ltn, 1 x Fw
Zugtrupp 1 x Ogfr , 2 x Gfr
7. Gruppe 2 x Obj, 13 x Gfr
8. Gruppe 3 x Obj, 10 x Ogfr
9. Gruppe 2 x Obj, 7 x Gfr

Kompanieangehörige, deren Zugehörigkeit zu einer Gruppe unklar ist:
1 x Ogfr, 10 x Gfr

It would appear that none were the rank of Jäger. I don't know whether Fallschirmjager had different criteria than infanterie (given their "elite" status)?

Trying to get the source of my friends information.

Hallo

I have found some more information on the actual OOB for an early war infanterie Kompanie. See link http://gliederungundstellenbesetzung.bl ... t-340.html

This is interesting as it contrasts nicely with the OOB in the first post relating to PFRGD. Here we have what I would have "previously" presumed to be the percentages of a Kompanie, i.e. a much higher portion of Soldaten.

Of interest in particular is that the Gruppenfuhrer is normally an Unteroffizier (as we would expect), with the occasional Gefreiter. But in almost all instances the Truppfuhrer is a Gefreiter, sometimes merely a Schutze - not an Obergefreiter in sight within the three Zug.

Why's this? I can understand that in early 1940 a Kompanie would have a proportionately higher ratio of Schutzen than in mid 1943 (where the increased ratio of rank in Gefreiters/Obergefreiters reflects campaign experience, and also a possible change in strategic attitude to rank), but no Obergefreiters within the three Zug at all?

Hmmmm...

Here is an interesting photo from the Bundesarchiv (also found in G,H,F). I believe it was taken in May or June 1943 as GD was preparing for the 'Zitadelle' offensive. The men are apparently cheering on their comrades at a sports event. Whilst there are a distinct lack of combat awards between them, it is clear that a fair proportion have some sort of 'junior' rank, indicating that they have been in service for some time.

Here is the relevant thread discussed. Link to website in first post.